Off course we're not going to convince one another. We haven't done that in the past dozen or so discussions either.

If there wasnt any sex would their be any new cases of AIDS? no. So stop haveing sex. Doesnt sound reasonable does it? Neither does anything you just said.

Just because some people dont want to wear a rubber or want to have promiscuous sex and spread AIDS killing millions of people, does that mean I should stop having sex with my wife? No

So

Just because some people are idiots and use firearms to kill each other, does that mean I should give up my firearm? No.

Just because some people drink and drive and kill people in car wrecks because they drive like shit, does that mean I should have my driving privileges revoke even though Im a good driver? No

I thik what we can learn from this thread is that there are some radically different ideas towards gun control in Europe and America perhaps demonstrating a difference in culture

By all means, i have no intention of attempting to convince anyone. Im putting some argument forward because im having trouble understanding 11b's, Satis's and BJ's judgement on the matter.

But very well, i guess its come to a point where i partially understand, and thats fine for now.

oh, hell, don't let me kill the discussion. By all means, continue. I just kinda feel like we're going around in circles. If you have more to add to the debate, by all means, feel free. I'll only nuke a discussion if it starts getting out of hand with childish crap.

Well, i was going to raise another issue, until i realised that it was pretty much in essence what i had already said. So ill try to sum this up for my behalf.


Firearm Ownership in the USA

Arguments In Favour:

- American history.
- Liberty to essentially buy&own whatever you want to.
- Contingency home security measures.
- More power to the people.

Arguments Not in favour:

- High firearm murder rate.
- Social (communal) tensions.

Maybe missed a few, but it seems like ive got the pulp of it.

I still dont understand why your are arguing about firearm death when AIDS and Smoking kills more people than guns do.

To me, if your saying because of the number of deaths from firearms, all firearms should be banned, then on the same point, since AIDS and smoking kills more, sex and cigarettes should be banned as well.

And thats not being realistic.

Because were talking about firearms 11b.

I am too. My understanding is that you think firearms should not be allowed to the general public based on the number of deaths that occur by them?

If you worried about people dieing, AIDS and Smoking causes more deaths than firearm deaths. And since they have more people dieing you should apply the same standard to AIDS and Smoking as you do firearms.

But I have a feeling you not concerned so much as how many people die from firearms, AIDS or Smoking.

I think you just have a grudge against firearms, a prejudice if you will.

I mean, if no one was killed by a firearms ever would you still think the same way about them?

If you do, then you just have a prejudice against them.

As a curiousity question, of the people that argue against firearms, how many of you have actually used a firearm? Like hunting or target shooting.

Another thing to keep in mind is that hunting is actually very important to the ecosystem. The reason being, of course, that humans have fucked shit up to the point where some animals could reproduce far too much, which in turn would lead to mass starvation in the winter. Legal, controlled hunting is a method of controlling this. As the reasoning goes, it's better to kill 1000 bucks during hunting season than have 10,000 animals die in the winter due to lack of food.

on another side note, if you hold a hunting permit in germany, you can legally walk down the street with a loaded rifle. Not that you see that much, by any means, but it is a German hunter's legal right. However, murder rates in Germany aren't abnormally high.

@ 11b:

the reason i am shining so much light on firearms because the issue is so different at my home to yours, that i find it interesting to discuss about.

Why dont i mention the same about sex/AIDS? Well, because we both have that problem. Firearms on the other hand is intriguing because i see Europe not wanting them, yet USA does.

So i try to find the bottom of this desire. I am concerned about Aids and Smoking deaths and i think it would be far more important for humanity to solve these first. But i wouldnt necessarily say that im prejudiced about guns, i base my judgement on reasoning, not prejuduce. I think in terms of gun ownership, i think youll find we are a bit similar. I have often pondered, 'wouldnt it be nice to own a replica of an MP5?'. Here is evidence that my desire to actually own a firearm is only proportionally smaller than yours. However, i draw a line of political reasoning and therefore know that at the end of the day, it would be worse off for the well-being of the world if i bought a real firearm.

@ Satis. Yeh, hunting is pretty much a new ball game when we talk about firarms. I dont want to sideline and start talking about hunting.

I have target shot with my own gun and my Dad has killed rats with our air rifle. However, I have found that people in this country that like guns and that go to shooting ranges are respectful of their weaponry and know how to be safe with it.

Perhaps the Americans would claim that too.

There are some things to be said for firearms (flattening out the advantage of force men generally hold over women etc.), and in the US the situation is probably too far gone to change (considerably) as has been pointed out here. I won't go into that here, I think you all know my general position with regard to firearms posession. (i.e. against) And on top of that, like Satis pointed out just now, it's mostly a cultural thing. (the German hunter thing)

I would like to say that the example of using cars, giving someone aids and other potentially lethal things as opposed to guns doesn't fly. A car is made to drive, sex is made to have pleasure/make kids. A gun is made to shoot/kill. So there's a clear difference. Cars, sex, etc. have different primary 'purposes', whereas a gun's purpose is pretty obvious.

Just saying; of course mental sanity/consciousness is a prime factor. But there's still a big difference between blatant weapons and items that are potentially dangerous. Heck, you could kill someone with a spoon if you like.

would you outlaw archery, though? Arrows were originally made to kill. Now they're more of a recreational sport than a killing implement. And I believe guns are the same. People don't go to war with handguns. They go to war with machine guns and assault rifles. Thoguh a handgun used to be an implement of war, it's not any more. Just like a bow isn't.

Anyway, that's fine. To each their own.