I understand why they have the teird tax system - but people who work hard should not be penalised (Except for footballers )

If they charged for a simple example, 10% tax, the guy who earns 10k per year gets tax 1k. The guy who earns 100k gets taxed 10k.

They still get more money (the idea of a %age) without punishing that guy.

I think some people here suffer from a misconception about "hard work". Perhaps it is important to consider the proportion of high paying jobs that actually are not "hard work". I often think some of those those jobs are easier than most less-skilled manual jobs. Perhaps the reason why there is such a fight to get to the top is not only because there is more money up there, but also the jobs are more cushy.

Yeah, exactly. Or at the very least, the payment isn't in proportion with the services delivered. The wages big managers get are RIDICULOUS. There's no chance in hell they're even slightly in proportion with the work they do, even though it's often more stressful than that of a worker. Not to mention the huge clauses they have in their contracts in case of being fired. Get another few million bucks just for being fired. Anyone see the contrast with a regular worker here? They get diddly-squat and have to live on welfare until they find a new job.

Ridiculous wages shouldn't be surprised at paying ridiculous taxes. I wish they'd tax the shit out of all those bastard rappers and football stars who waste their money on a carpark of 20 ferraris they never drive. I don't mind someone having a luxuruous lifestyle, obviously. Buy a nice house, a nice car or two, a monster pc and even a home cinema system for all I care. But don't go buying an entire car park, spill champagne of 10k a bottle on the floor, buy a diamond collar for your dog and more of that crap. Makes my blood burn.

In the end, the cliché is partially true: money isn't the only thing that makes you happy. You'll be just as happy on 100k a year as you would be on a 150k a year. Once you get past a certain income, it's not about the money anymore. it's about deluding yourself that you need more stuff and more expensive stuff to be happy.

That kind of consumerism isn't even sustainable anymore, environmentally. It's about time we grow wise and realise this.

I agree 100% (hense my footballers hate) however generally, most of those people (please note, generally) have worked to get to such a position. Education and promotion and so forth. Of course, the problem is this is that with anything in life, there is more than one way to get what you want.

Blackmail is a fun way to get promoted, afterall!

I feel that if someone genuinley worked their way up the ladder from making the tea and coffee to project management and leadership/whatever, they deserve not to be penalised.

Of course, there are huge flaws - like when assholes get promoted.

I just basically said the same thing twice in different words.

The problem is that you can't say who got there on plain hard work and who got there by sucka means. And realistically speaking, most ppl who become rich only become so because they come from a rich/well-educated background (which often is a parallel). It's possible to work from rags to richess, but unless what the capitalist dream pictures it's not quite a common sight.

It's one of the biggest flaws of capitalism: the rich will become richer and the poor poorer. After a long time such a situation becomes unbearable for a society, so you need to give things a push in the back by measures like these. (taxing the very rich more than others)

Aye 'tis true, But that doesn't mean that it doesn't suck.

For instance the NHS, britains free health service, is a joke.

Every year we pay more and more taxes, yet a work collegue of mines who's 2(ish) year old kid is very ill with a serious chest infection (coughing up blood and the likes) can't get a hospital bed, so they transfered him to another hospital, and wow, not a bed there either. So he has to be at home, without doctors nearby instead. And yet you see the fuckers (round we go again) in Government in Jags? Cushy holidays? Well wait a minute... doesn't their pay come from our taxes?

We're basically paying some one to tell us how to run our lives. Fucking great.

haha...yea...that's called government.

You want to see a screwed up health system? Check out Canada. I mean, the US certainly has health system issues...you basically can't go to the doctor if you don't have insurance. It's just too expensive.

But in Canada, it's free...well, except for the crushing taxes. Or the fact that there are SO many people going to doctors for absolutely everything (OMG I stubbed my toe, take me to the hospital) that it's difficult to get care at all.

Catpialism/Democracy is an absolutely horrible way to run a country. Except all the other was seem to be worse. Communism is a joke that failed explosively basically everywhere it's been tried (I don't think China counts). Socialism doesn't seem to work either. Anarchy isn't working too well for Somalia. What next?

Extremes never work. Democratic capitalism with social checks and balances seems to be the best bet.

I dunno, I think a benevolent dictatorship can work. The problem with those is that a) there will always be people opposed to it so repression is inevitable and b) the longevity sucks. Once the benevolent dictator kicks the bucket for one reason or another, things can get very ugly.

But take Bolivia for example: Chavez definitely isn't perfect and is gathering an awful lot of power (parliament gave him personal authorisationin some fields), but has undubitably and vastly improved the social situation in Bolivia and is immensely popular. His elections and authorisations are all a result of popular vote. You can rig an election, but the type of landslide victories Chavez gets can't be staged with the EU and the US paying close attention like they do. Heck he even survived a CIA coup attempt.


As for the government...well, don't be fooled: the top politicians don't really make that much money, compared to the filthy rich business top managers. In fact, they're beggars in comparison. That doesn't mean they should waste our hard-earned tax money, but still. I worked at the Belgian minister of Home Office's personal department (about 40 ppl) for a month as an intern as you know, and yes there is a lot of slacking and money-wasting going on. And I wish I had a cool car with a personal driver as well. But I've also seen that the minister (and the heads of the different cells) doesn't have a life. No life at all. He wakes up at 7, works, works, works, goes to bed at 12. No matter if it's Monday, Sunday or any other day. I believe he had an hour or two for his family on Sundays, wow. Heh, point being: for working like a madman they don't really make that much money. Of course, the UK and US are bigger countries so the ministers will make more money too, even though they can't humanly do more work than a Belgian minister (only 24 hours in a day). Anyway, I'm just saying: politics is a calling for 95% of the ppl involved, the wages really aren't that spectacular. They only start making BIG money when they retire from politics and become board members in big companies.

The Health Service thing is tragic, of course, but it's not just about money or how its spent. The US spends a multitude on the public school system compared to many other countries, yet it is one of the worst failing school systems of the West. The reason? Who'll say...mentality problems, bad training, whatever. It's the same with health services. But beats me who's gonna reform it though. You'd think that it'd be a lot easier in the British political system to make drastic changes, with the two-party system. But apparently not.

Chavez is in Venezuela and he's fucking up the country very hard. He has used Venezuela's oil to buy anti-American sentiments instead of using it to give his country a future and I predict the country will be another failed state in 10 years time.

Bolivia, Venezuela, same thing.

And I don't think you can say he's fucking the country at this point. The results of his policy are, frankly, impressive so far. Look at the economic numbers after he took office in 2002:



(world bank data)

That's pretty badass. Of course, you can tweak numbers and there are several ways to spur short-term growth but at least there's progression so far. I'm just trying to say that there are both good and bad things about his presidency so far...to quote wikipedia:



I for one am sympathetic towards his goals and plans to unite the third world countries to form a counterbalance for the West. The right-wing world view shoved down our throats by the Anglosaxon world is getting kinda annoying.

And sure, given the fact that Venezuela is a banana republic there's a good chance that things will go awfully wrong within 10 years. But I'm willing to give Chavez the benefit of the doubt. I like him better than most other dictators and semi-dictators.

Is Belgium the third world too these days? So far, he's succeeded putting his friends in office and destroying free press. The economic growth is courtesy of increasing fuel prices.

Third world what now? Those graphs were the Venezuelan economy graphs, not the Belgian ones.

And meh, I don't see too many differences between some Western states and what Chavez is doing. He's an elected president who's been given a lot of freedom by an elected parliament. It's highly questionable, but not by any means 'unjust'.

And press freedom...there is no such thing as absolute press freedom, unfortunately. How about press freedom in the West in the first weeks after 9/11 (especially in the US)? Reporting something even mildly critical was commercial and political suicide.

Look, I'm not saying Chavez is a miracle worker and I think it's obvious from my previous post(s) that i don't have too many expectations from his policy. But at least he's trying to make a change, and so far it doesn't look like Venezuela is worse off than before he came to power. Compared to the previous regimes in Venezuela (and in other parts of South America) there's a definite upwards trend. This is infinitely better than those Western puppet dictators of before. But 'better' doesn't mean 'good'. That takes a process of many years...kinda like they're trying to turn Iraq into a democratic, well-organized state overnight. It's an illusion that will ever be possible.

Our own societies are built upon generation after generation of dictators and wars; and devastating as they may have been sometimes they were the basis of what we have now. Post systems, city building plans, law codes, political systems..you name it. Napoleon was a cruel dictator but he reformed the Western European mainland structures to that extent we still build on them now. You know?

If you're not in a third world country, why would you like someone uniting third world countries against you?
I think there's a big difference between media being moronic enough to censor themselves after 911 and having a government actively stamping out any idea of free press. If you're still not convinced Chavez is fishy, consider the fact that Chavez is one of the few friends Zimbabwe's president Robert Mugabe still has. Same ideology, but Mugabe started earlier, and succeeded in making one of the most promising (if there is any) African country into a hell-hole.
All hail socialist revolutions!