This is a pretty decent and friendly discussion...what's going on? No but seriously, good stuff. No one getting pissed off or anyhting and good points.

I don't know what to say guys about guns except look at it from a womans prespective. Women are often the targets of these attacks, we are the ones raped, beaten etc. Men are attacked yes but, i think most men who are in the mind set to harm another would much prefer a female target - because face it we are weaker physically etc. So, I am often at home alone, or chose not to go out of my home alone for that very reason. However, I feel safe in my home because I do know how to shoot a gun fairly well. So this is my chance to be safe when the mighty Satis is not around. And you say you would just run out the door and away - A- what if I were wearing heel about to go out? You try running in them. B- what if some thug came to the door posing as a door to door salemen or something - most of us would open the door to tell them no - how much chance would i have to runn out of the house then - by time i would unlock the back door alone he would probably have me. Now I will hand you the odds of me getting to my gun in that situation is sliim too... but at least I feel I would have more of a chance. So, dunno - but I can say it is a fact that the thugs have guns here and in whatever countries you are in, so you may as well at least have the same chances as they do.

Actually as Derf says, the chances that a burglar (or any other criminal) carries a gun is really slim here. I guess that sounds a bit silly to Americans, but the most effective way to deal with a burglar here is make a lot of noise - that will scare them away in a lot of cases.

Yeah same here. Only gangs with illegal guns have them. It's one facet of our society that Americans and other gun-wielding cultures fail to understand, it cuts down the deaths.

It's interesting that guns are so scarce in your countries, and I'm not really sure why that is. There are actually alot of laws that regulate the purchase and possession of firearms in the US. Too many, in many peoples' ideas.

However, the guns used by criminals are most usually illegal. By criminals I mean the career types. So these guns were somehow acquired by the criminals in ways other than purchasing them at a gun store.

So, basically, a prohibition against guns here wouldn't help....the criminals don't get their guns normally anyway. Besides, it really is too late...there are far too many guns already in circulation. If the government attempted to forcibly remove these guns fom their populace, they would face another revolution.

Its a mix of a) understanding the fact that if people AND police carry no guns you are safer and b) understandibly harsh sentences of posession.

See again I am not so sure that is true - in some areas they have made it easier to shoot to kill criminals when needed - ie if you fear for your life you may shoot before trying to first flee acording to the new revision to the laws. So, in the old way you needed to first try to flee to safety - and in those few states who have made this change the crime rate has dropped. Because the criminals know that they have greater chance of being shot and.... those criminals are being shot - and while yes they are people - they would not have gotten shot if they were not doing a wrong..... so.... moral in my opinion is lets wipe out a few criminals and maybe we can sleep a little better at night. No more of this bullshit of releasing for good behavior which statistics show 90% of the time the criminal just commits crimbs again and usually ina more efficient manner. I for one will keep my gun and fight for the right to have it. Especially since i must add i have refugees sleeping within and easy walk to my house not 5 blocks away - I don't know what types of people they are. But glad I have a mean ass dog in my yard.

I didnt really understand your post there Shiny. But if youre replying to me i can assure you that pretty much how it works over here. Can i have confirmation from another European?

Yeah I would say you're correct in that Derf. Less guns does mean less people walking around with tools of death in their pocket. To quote (near to) what Terry Pratchett said about weapons in bars, it starts very politely then something happens and you end up picking dead bodies off the floor.

No I understand that in your countries it is a different story - however - it is past the time when that would work in this country. If people were forced for instance to turn in all fire arms (a, this would not happen as many people would take up arms, and b, the criminals definately would not turn theirs in, so it would leave a very heavily populated criminal population with guns - crime would go up here. - Our country started off with different principals - where we felt in our constitution having guns in its populus was important for our contries survival and ability to protect itself from other countries, packs of people we stole our country from. etc. So, beause of a couple hundred years of our country gathering guns and letting it's people own them, it's never happen where they would be able to take them alone. And, as for bar fight - please keep in mind it is not typically "bar fights" where people bring out their guns. It is usually places such as bad areas of town when people can not get along.

Totally agree Shiny. Though, just for conversation, wouldnt you like the USA to have Europes gun-intolerant culture?

I won't answer for Shiny, but from myself.

Hell no.

Germany's considered a fully civilized, gun-intolerant, first world country. But from first-hand experience, I know that you better cooperate with the Polizei, or you risk being beaten.

England, you better hope you aren't mistaken for a terrorist, or you'll be held down and shot six times in the face.

France. The police carry Uzis in downtown Paris.

In Europe, you may have significantly lower murder rates than the US, and I'm happy for you. But you have this added security at the expense of freedom and at the cost of giving more control to the government and police. I don't trust the government or the police. There's no way I'd trade me rights for a drop in murder rates.

What do you suggest instead of cooperating with the police, shooting back?

I agree with Shiny in that the circumstances that brought about the US means that it would be very hard to give up the gun culture. But the circumstance that Satis referred to in Britain is unfair. It was an unusual circumstance and I would reserve judgement until the official inquiry is over, so we can decide from the overall evidence. To be honest Satis I wouldn't really care for a gun because what is the point. I live in Manchester, perhaps one of the more dangerous places in Britain and I have never been mugged. Yes my neighbour has had things stolen from his house but when I've got three dogs that are very territorial, no burglar would think of coming near our house and if they did they would not be tooled up and would either run or attack the person which, with three dogs in the house would not be a good idea.

I belive that there will be a time when any government becomes corrupt to the point that a revolution happens. That probably will not be in my life time - but I think it is important to have an armed populas - otherwise we would be throwing rocks while they have nukes - does not seem even? It in my opinion keeps us from being a 3rd world country - as when reason would otherwise prove useless we have an alternative where we could have a well armed militia of sorts to insure a more proper governing body. Again not saying this is an issue now but it could be - who am I to say we wil always live "peacefully." So in answer no - I personally do not know anyone who has not died from a gun except in wars or in taking their own lives. So, I guess I would say - it is not a problem really. Except in lower income areas when stress is greatly increased I guess.