Over here, everything happens with bank cards. The only problem is internet stores don't work with them, but I mostly buy in stores anyway.

My bank card is probably just like yours, but it sports a Visa symbol and is accepted online. I think Europe needs to go in that direction more.

Yeh well estonia is an exception in Europe. Basically here you can get normal credit card, virtual credit card and whatever card basically .

Well I can get a credit card, but it costs money and my bank card is free. So there.
Also, the only online store where I buy stuff, Bol.com, supports direct bank transfer.

To get Visa here you have to prove that you have a regular income (as in a job), so i could get visa but i don't really need it at this point.
Besides, my gf has one, so if i ever need to pay something with visa i just use her card

I think i've read somewhere that in America they have an enormous amount of people that get in debt because of that easy-to-get credit.
So i don't see it as a good thing.

oh yea, we have a debt-driven culture. But it's not as bad as it sounds, from an economic perspective.

Anyway, my point was that I have a regular bank card that debits against my checking account. Not "loan" type stuff or interested rates or anything, it's basically just a debit card. But it has a Visa logo and is thus accepted like a credit card, even though it's really just a debit card. Extremely handy.

You guys should all buy me tons of nice stuff and send it to me. It'll improve Europe's economy.

On the short term perhaps.

You people are just making me jelaous. I am off this topic.

Well, there really are major economic benefits from a debt-ridden economy, believe it or not. The presence of a lot of debt actually slows inflation/deflation. Also, debt acts like an artificial cash infusion... there's no real "cash" infused, so no serious inflation, but at the same time there're additional dollars in circulation, which causes all the economic niceties of increased cash flow. The US may have one of the largest deficits and most debt in the world, but we're also the strongest economy in the world.

Anyway, please, send me money.

That's why it's only good in the short term. If anything bad happens in the world economy, debt-ridden countries are hit a lot harder.

Hehe lol Estonia is like a small version of US, atleast around Tallinn.

At the eastern border its different though, the city there called Narva, only 2% of its population speak Estonian as their native tounge and last year one of the tv channels made a clip in Narva and they couldnt buy a bottle of milk from the shop when asking it in estonian language.

Basically its the aftermath of "Russian liberation," when they conquerd our country for 40 years or so. And the funniest thing is, they refuse to learn estonian, and they wont leave either.

Peltz, how are they generally treated? With disrespect? Just wondering.


As far as the power of debt economy goes...I don't really believe too much in it either. I'm sure it has some benefits, but still. It's true that the US seems to manage just fine with massive debt economically speaking, but the US are a bit of a special case because of its sheer size.

Europe and the biggest Asian countries (especially them) KEEP investing in the dollar and the American economy for the sole reason that their own economy has much profit from a strong American market. Calling the US on their debt or stop buying the dollar would mean that their own economies would take an enormous hit as well. The US is the main trading partner of the EU and countries like Japan and China, and as such they prefer a US that is able to buy a lot of their products to stimulate production and economy at home.

If the US were another country, they'd pretty much be broke-ass. But they've got the advantage of a huge market willing to consume and a rep for being economically strong. If Belgium or Holland would have a state debt that corresponds to that of the US, me and Arathorn would be shining shoes for rich Frenchmen.

In that case I would be robbing Frenchmen.

I certianly see your point, but to take it a bit in perspective...

I believe everyone can agree that the US wasn't a world power (or world anything) up until around WWII. We acquired our massive debt (or at least the beginnings of it) during the great depression...mass investment in work programs and country-wide improvement plans and all that. Then came the massive spending of war for WWII, plunging us WAY into debt...but all that cash and production shot us into super-power status (well, along with the nuke, of course)...and we've been debt-ridden and uber-powerful ever since.

So...if Belgium borrowed massively and put all that money into building a super industrial base, where would they be? Probably like South Korea and Japan, who did the same thing.... economic powerhouse. Well, except that I'm sure the whole EU thing would fuck that up, I'm sure.

Actually, Belgium already is something of an economic powerhouse...not in absolute terms, but in comparison. If you look at the list of the (nominal) international GDP's you'll see that Belgium is in 17th place, but that every country ahead of it has a LOT more inhabitants, except for Holland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... P_(nominal)#fn_1

Anyway, my point kinda was that Belgium will never be an economic superpower because of its small size and population. But in comparison it beats a lot of big countries without being debt-driven, same for Holland btw.

I still think that the US' debt is a bit of a special case because the rest of the world tries to keep things going, but otherwise I (obviously) agree that the US has made a huge step forward in the past 50 years in terms of general development, though. I just don't agree on the reason why. Their massive investments in the army and the military might that comes with it is a large part of the puzzle too. The funny thing is that the neoliberal US government always criticizes the Western European 'welfare states' for spending too much government money on social security etc, but that the US economy is one of the must heavily subsidised economies in the world with all the money that goes to the army. Because unlike in Belgium (or not nearly as much anyway) it serves as a way for the poor to get some status and/or to be able to go to college, like you mentioned in the other thread. So yeah, that's social security too. You just have an added chance of getting your ass blasted in the desert.